Neurodivergence and Creativity: Insights from Art Therapist Zulay Romero
#41: Join me along with my friend Zulay Romero as we delve into the transformative world of art journaling and its profound impact on emotional wellness. Zulay, a credentialed art therapist, shares her unique insights on how engaging in art can help individuals process their thoughts and feelings beyond the limitations of words.
Zulay delves into her personal experiences of being diagnosed with ADHD and autism, describing how these labels have empowered her to understand and advocate for herself. We have a conversation about the misconceptions surrounding neurodivergence within religious communities, as Zulay shares her heart to provide support for Christian women navigating similar experiences.
This episode will encourage you to view your unique struggles as opportunities for growth and connection with God, reminding you that your creative expressions can serve as a pathway to healing and understanding.
Key Take-Aways:
- 00:26 -Art Journaling and Neurodivergence with Zulay Romero
- 00:34 - Understanding the Impact of Journaling on Our Brain
- 02:05 - Zulay's Journey with Art and Therapy
- 06:10 - The Importance of Doodling for Focus
- 08:38 - Exploring Neurodivergence and Its Challenges
- 22:53 - The Role of Creativity in Healing
- 22:59 - Art Journaling: Beyond Words
- 41:46 - Practical Tips for Starting Art Journaling
Resources:
- Zulay's Ember Studio Instagram
- Zulay's Ember Studio Website
Heavenly Position Guidance Challenge:
For this week’s Heavenly Position System Challenge, if you are not a journaler, I want to challenge you to maybe try and create a piece of art to express your feelings or thoughts. You can even do a collage like Zulay described.
If you are a pen or pencil to paper or iPad journaler, I want to challenge you to step outside your journaling routine and maybe try an entry drawing, doodling or even collaging.
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Want to connect with Angee? You can find her on Instagram @angeewrobertson or at angeerobertson.com
Transcript
I'm Angie Robertson and you're listening to the Spirit led Life podcast, episode 41.
Angie Robertson:We are continuing our series on journaling, celebrating National Journal Writing month.
Angie Robertson:Today is the third episode where I will be highlighting the diverse methods and styles of journaling, emphasizing its flexibility.
Angie Robertson:Joining me on today's episode will be my friend Sulay Ramiro.
Angie Robertson:Sulay talks about a different perspective in journaling and that is art, journaling, journaling and neurodivergence.
Angie Robertson:This conversation is packed full with information about how journaling affects our brain.
Angie Robertson:If you are like me and you sometimes doodle while you talk on the phone, well there is a good reason behind that.
Angie Robertson:Lets go to the show.
Angie Robertson:Welcome to the show if youre new here, I am so glad you are joining us.
Angie Robertson:On this podcast we explore who God is so we can know who he has made us to be and learn to live our lives by the holy spirit.
Angie Robertson:Before we get into today's topic, I want to invite you to join our mailing list.
Angie Robertson:You will receive weekly emails that let you know when a new episode releases as well as I share behind the scenes in those emails that I don't share anywhere else.
Angie Robertson:The emails are short and easy to read so you don't have to feel overwhelmed with yet another email in your inbox.
Angie Robertson:You can join the list by going to Spiritled lifepodcast.com and complete the subscriber form.
Angie Robertson:I'd love to communicate with you each week and you can always reply to those emails as I receive the responses directly.
Angie Robertson:We are continuing in the journaling topic and I can't wait to share with you today's conversation with my friend Sulay.
Angie Robertson:She is another in real life friend who actually does live locally.
Angie Robertson:To me she is an amazing therapist and I love her approach in using art as part of her therapy.
Angie Robertson:I knew I wanted to have Sulai on this series.
Angie Robertson:For all of you out there who either dislike the thought of journaling or maybe you feel overwhelmed by the thought of it, she will bring you a different perspective.
Angie Robertson:She is a proud colombian american and lifelong artist who has been creating ever since she can remember.
Angie Robertson:She holds a bachelor's degree in studio art and dual master's degree in art therapy and counseling.
Angie Robertson:She owns two businesses.
Angie Robertson:One is a therapy practice and the other is an artist creative life coaching business where she helps neurodivergent women like herself overcome obstacles and grow in confidence.
Angie Robertson:Her passion is using creativity and the love of Jesus to help women embrace their God given abilities and find joy and freedom in who he has called them to be.
Angie Robertson:I can't wait for you to meet my friend Sulayde.
Angie Robertson:All right.
Angie Robertson:Well, welcome, Sulay.
Angie Robertson:I am so excited to have you here, and I hate saying that because I use the word excited so much, I need to find a different word.
Angie Robertson:But I'm glad you are here.
Angie Robertson:I am anxious to have this conversation with you.
Angie Robertson:It is National Journal writing month, which all the listeners know because I've probably said it 9 million times by now, and I couldn't think of a better person to have on to talk about a different aspect of journaling, and that is art journaling.
Angie Robertson:And you are an art therapist.
Angie Robertson:And actually, I'm going to let you tell, I've shared in the intro a little bio about you, kind of your professional background, but I'd love for you to share a little bit more with the audience about who you are and the work that you do.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah, well, I do want to say that I feel honored to be here.
Sulay Ramiro:I think when I first, you know, I mentioned when I first got your message about coming on, I was like, me?
Sulay Ramiro:I don't know anything.
Sulay Ramiro:But the Lord is working on.
Sulay Ramiro:On confidence and, like, recognizing that there are gifts that he gives us and that it's okay to feel confident in that.
Sulay Ramiro:And it's like, you know, we're taught humility so much that sometimes we put ourselves down in a way.
Sulay Ramiro:But anyways, about me.
Sulay Ramiro:So, yeah, I am a credentialed art therapist.
Sulay Ramiro:That means I'm a practicing art therapist in the United States.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm a licensed therapist out of North Carolina, and I do telehealth.
Sulay Ramiro:My business is virtual, so I am registered as a telehealth provider for the state of Florida as well.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm a lifetime artist.
Sulay Ramiro:Ever since I was a kid, I.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah, I just.
Sulay Ramiro:It could be anything from, like, coloring pages to, like, doodles.
Sulay Ramiro: book, and I found a post from: Sulay Ramiro:And I just kind of chuckled at that was like, oh, that's so funny.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I really did do that, like, all throughout my entire life, my mom was my biggest supporter.
Sulay Ramiro:She always.
Sulay Ramiro:She was the one that got me my first, like, art materials and, like, was always wanting me to draw flowers for her and things like that.
Sulay Ramiro:But, yeah, I went on to college to get a bachelor's in studio art with a concentration in art therapy.
Sulay Ramiro: have been in the field since: Angie Robertson:And let's talk about the doodling, because before we started the recording, you said to me that you were going to be doodling while we interviewed.
Angie Robertson:So talk to me a little bit about that.
Angie Robertson:What does the doodling do for you?
Sulay Ramiro:Okay, so it kind of relates to my own mental health journey, but ever since I was a kid, I really struggled and it showed up a lot in school, I can say now, because I'm more confident in that of, like, I am a very intelligent human, but I just really struggled with concentration and motivation in school.
Sulay Ramiro:And it kind of showed up as like, oh, Sulay is not smart or she's too slow, or, like, my mom always used to get report cards that would be like, she's doing fine, but she's really slow.
Sulay Ramiro:And it's kind of sad to think about.
Sulay Ramiro:But I actually was like that kid that always had to miss out on recess because I couldn't get my work done.
Sulay Ramiro:So my punishment was doing my work during recess.
Sulay Ramiro:I was homeschooled for a little bit, so my mom kind of picked up a little bit more on how I thrived, so much more on one on one.
Sulay Ramiro:But after a year and a half of being homeschooled, I was getting physically ill from the lack of social time.
Sulay Ramiro:So I went back to a school.
Sulay Ramiro:It was private.
Sulay Ramiro:School was so much smaller, and there was more focus on, like, one on one connection with students.
Sulay Ramiro:So I did a little better, but still struggled.
Sulay Ramiro:Still, like, could not for the life of me, like, enjoy school either.
Sulay Ramiro:I have really bad memory, but my cousin brings this up a lot.
Sulay Ramiro:But I used to say I was going to drop out of school and get my GED and, like, travel the east coast in an rv selling art.
Sulay Ramiro:I don't remember saying that, but I'm not going to lie.
Sulay Ramiro:I wouldn't put it past me.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah, that was the kind of, I'm sure the kind of desperation I felt as a kid, but when I went to grad school, actually, so they say that people who are neurodivergent, the problem isn't that we can't acclimate to our environment, but more so, our environment should acclimate to us.
Sulay Ramiro:And I truly believe that because college was, like, the only four years of my life in the education that I was in, an environment that was for me and then adjusted to me.
Sulay Ramiro:And so I did really, really well.
Sulay Ramiro:I graduated top of my class.
Sulay Ramiro:I was like, I was doing so much good there.
Sulay Ramiro:And since it was, like, a really small school that they used to publish articles and, like, send it to my hometown in the newspaper and stuff, and I would pop up in the newspaper all the time.
Sulay Ramiro:I didn't know, but, like, my mom later on told me that she would take those newspapers to my high school and, like, shove it in their face and be like, wow.
Sulay Ramiro:Like you said, my kid couldn't do it.
Sulay Ramiro:So, yeah, so all of that to say that flash forward to grad school, that's when I learned, like, okay, something's different in my brain.
Sulay Ramiro:I almost failed out on my first semester of grad school.
Sulay Ramiro:I ended up getting tested, was diagnosed with ADHD.
Sulay Ramiro:At that time, medication was necessary, and honestly, like, I don't know if I would have made it.
Sulay Ramiro:That level of, like, intensity of education, like, everything that is required in grad school.
Sulay Ramiro:It's like a 24/7 job, essentially.
Sulay Ramiro:But I did it.
Sulay Ramiro:I graduated.
Sulay Ramiro:And then actually, this year, I got tested again and Washington diagnosed with autism.
Sulay Ramiro:Because the older I get, the more difficult, like, certain sensory things have become that I think as a kid, it was super easy to mask and overlook because I was living in a very controlled environment.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, living in my parents home.
Sulay Ramiro:There's a strict schedule with school, all the things.
Sulay Ramiro:But then going off into adulthood, you know, the more self sufficient I became, the more difficulties I had.
Sulay Ramiro:Honestly, being diagnosed was a blessing in disguise, because now it's been like, years of just learning what works for me, what doesn't work for me.
Sulay Ramiro:And so to answer your question about the doodling, that's what works for me.
Sulay Ramiro:That's how I am able to focus on people's words.
Sulay Ramiro:I learned, I want to say, maybe it was in my first internship placement, I was working with military, and I realized the only way that I can focus is, like, imagining the words as a movie in my head.
Sulay Ramiro:And that's how I learned that I actually do like reading, and I am good at it.
Sulay Ramiro:I just had to find the thing that I could imagine in my head as a movie.
Sulay Ramiro:But, yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:So, like, now, even with my work, there are some cases where there are some clients that I'm able to just, like, dive into the conversation and have that movie going in my head and others where I do have to draw or doodle or do something with my hands.
Sulay Ramiro:And it's not to say that anybody I'm talking to or even conversations here with you.
Sulay Ramiro:It's not to say that my brain is bored.
Sulay Ramiro:It's just that my brain is focusing on the thing that is not to be.
Sulay Ramiro:It's not the focus, you know?
Sulay Ramiro:So I have to, like, hone it in, and that's how I hone it in.
Angie Robertson:I love that.
Angie Robertson:Oh, man, you impact so much in there.
Angie Robertson:I was going to ask you, how was it going through grad school?
Angie Robertson:But you answered that, and I'm so glad you did, because I was curious as to, you know, if you need to doodle.
Angie Robertson:How was that?
Angie Robertson:But I can identify with a lot of that myself.
Angie Robertson:I haven't been tested, but I know for me in school, I was the same way.
Angie Robertson:I was always slow.
Angie Robertson:I was put in the slow learner classes, and I literally was just bored with school.
Angie Robertson:Like, I was so bored that it was.
Angie Robertson:It was.
Angie Robertson:I didn't find any value in it for me.
Angie Robertson:Like.
Angie Robertson:But like you said, when I got into college, that was a little bit different.
Angie Robertson:Yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:I went to a very small college, and I'm very fortunate that I had the opportunity to go there, but it was a very small school, so there was more opportunity for, again, that one on one.
Sulay Ramiro:And just the Lord put me at the right place with the right people because I am an introvert at heart.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm one of those people that I love humans, but I have a hard time connecting with humans.
Sulay Ramiro:And I think, you know, this year, I've realized it's because I value authenticity.
Sulay Ramiro:And, like, there's just a part of my brain that is so incredibly uncomfortable with small talk.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I just can't do it.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I hate it at all cost.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm just like, if we're not talking about, like, you know, the way you grew up, I don't want to, you know, like, I don't know what it is.
Angie Robertson:The deep, dark sea, like, over.
Angie Robertson:They call it oversharing, but really, that's what I want.
Sulay Ramiro:I want the exact same.
Sulay Ramiro:So what the beauty is that I saw this meme the other day that I related so much, too, and it was like, saying how introverts make friends.
Sulay Ramiro:And it was a pie chart, and, like, most of the chart was, like, the color that was not me.
Sulay Ramiro:And it was like, they get adopted by an extroverted friend, and that's how they make friends.
Sulay Ramiro:And I'm like, that was literally my four years of college, where two weeks in, I met my best friend, and from there on, it was a, hey, have you met my friend Sulay?
Sulay Ramiro:Like, you guys should talk.
Sulay Ramiro:She loves art and things like that, but, yeah, like, it just.
Sulay Ramiro:I messaged her the other day, and I was like, I wish I just had you around.
Sulay Ramiro:Because making friends as a 30 year old is really hard.
Angie Robertson:I'm in my fifties.
Angie Robertson:It's still hard.
Angie Robertson:I totally get it.
Angie Robertson:I was like that, too.
Angie Robertson:I always had one best friend who was very, like, outgoing, outspoken, and she had tons of friends, but I was always her ride or die, you know, loyalist type person.
Angie Robertson:Yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:Oh, yeah.
Angie Robertson:So I identify with that.
Angie Robertson:Well, let's.
Angie Robertson:I want to back up a little bit to something you said and you talked about neurodivergence, and it's a word that has really come up in the last.
Angie Robertson:I don't know.
Angie Robertson:For me, it seems like the last maybe since the pandemic, that that's really started to emerge.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Angie Robertson:Can you speak a little bit more about that for maybe people that don't know what neurodivergence is?
Sulay Ramiro:So neurodivergence is when.
Sulay Ramiro:So it's twofold, right?
Sulay Ramiro:Or there's two things to compare.
Sulay Ramiro:One is neurotypical.
Sulay Ramiro:That would be like, what is quote unquote normal or typical or better brain.
Sulay Ramiro:Neurodivergence is like when we have a mental health diagnosis that physically alters the makeup of our brain.
Sulay Ramiro:And diagnoses that I call it, like, the umbrella.
Sulay Ramiro:Neurodivergence is an umbrella.
Sulay Ramiro:And under this umbrella are diagnoses like ADHD, autism, anxiety, depression, PTSD, OCD.
Sulay Ramiro:All of these.
Sulay Ramiro:If you were to, like, you know, look at a scan of our brains, are.
Sulay Ramiro:You can see that it's different than what a neurotypical brain looks like.
Sulay Ramiro:Yes.
Sulay Ramiro:I was going to say, I think it was around Covid when it became, like, it was, like, coined, like a term or whatever.
Sulay Ramiro:But I will say that a lot of times, people view it as, like, neurotypical brain good, neurodivergent brain bad.
Sulay Ramiro:But it's not that.
Sulay Ramiro:It's just like, our brain is different.
Sulay Ramiro:We interact with the world differently than what a person without these diagnoses do.
Sulay Ramiro:The other day, I saw this thing where it was like, yeah, neurodivergence, autism, it's great.
Sulay Ramiro:And all until.
Sulay Ramiro:And it listed all the things that we may struggle with or all the things that are I are our quirks that then becomes bad.
Sulay Ramiro:So, for example, if stimming gets out of control or we have a reaction to some sort of sensory thing, and it's like, oh, my gosh, this is such a problem.
Sulay Ramiro:I think the Lord's put it on my heart to advocate for, especially christian women who are neurodivergent, because we're just viewed so differently after diagnoses.
Sulay Ramiro:I remember telling family that I think I'm autistic.
Sulay Ramiro:And they're like, you don't look autistic.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm like, it's not a look, though.
Sulay Ramiro:You can't see my brain, so you don't know.
Sulay Ramiro:But I know what it's like because of just my lived experience, but also my training and my education.
Sulay Ramiro:Um, and then I started working with a neuropsychologist and got tested.
Sulay Ramiro:And when I told them, they're like, oh.
Sulay Ramiro:Oh, my.
Sulay Ramiro:And I'm like, no, this is a good thing.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, now I understand.
Sulay Ramiro:And now I know what it is that my brain needs.
Angie Robertson:I do want to circle back because you did bring something up, and that is, I know in my generation, people who had depression or anxiety and not to mention that autism, ADHD, add, all that really wasn't very prevalent.
Angie Robertson:It was there, but nobody diagnosed it or put a name to it and a term to it when I was growing up.
Angie Robertson:But growing up in the church, if you sought out those things, it was almost.
Angie Robertson:You were almost condemned for it.
Angie Robertson:You know, if you sought out treatment like medication for depression, you know, you don't need to be addicted to that or anything.
Angie Robertson:Yeah.
Angie Robertson:And I heard you say that you.
Angie Robertson:That is one of the things that God's placed on you is to work with christian women, especially in that.
Angie Robertson:Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Angie Robertson:Like, is there.
Angie Robertson:Is there still really a stigma about.
Sulay Ramiro:Oh, absolutely.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Sulay Ramiro:And the christian community.
Sulay Ramiro:Now, let me back up.
Sulay Ramiro:The religious community, because that's what it is.
Sulay Ramiro:There's this big, like, like you said, condemning of it, because I remember I got a lot of, oh, you just need to have more faith.
Sulay Ramiro:You're just not praying enough.
Sulay Ramiro:You're just, you know.
Sulay Ramiro:And then I remember watching.
Sulay Ramiro:Have you seen the chosen?
Angie Robertson:Yeah.
Angie Robertson:Well, I haven't seen the chosen.
Angie Robertson:I'm sorry.
Angie Robertson:No, I have not known it well, so, good.
Sulay Ramiro:You should.
Sulay Ramiro:And there's this one episode where it's Jesus healing the blind man and someone asking, like, who sinned first, him or his parents?
Sulay Ramiro:And I remember, I've seen, this is like the new season, season four.
Sulay Ramiro:And I saw this episode, like, maybe two or three times now.
Sulay Ramiro:But I remember thinking, like, I think that's exactly what people think when they're diagnosed with anything mental health related, where it's like.
Sulay Ramiro:Or even physical, where it's, you know, it's because you're a sinner.
Sulay Ramiro:And it's like, no.
Sulay Ramiro:And I.
Sulay Ramiro:In the episode Jesus, his line is like, this happened so that God can be glorified.
Sulay Ramiro:Right?
Sulay Ramiro:And I think a lot of times we think that what we're going through is, like, punishment or, like, you know, cause and effect.
Sulay Ramiro:But it's like, sometimes, like, the Lord just wants to use it to, one, show you his power, right?
Sulay Ramiro:And then show others his goodness and his glory through that.
Sulay Ramiro:Because I truly believe, like, mental health, it's not a punishment.
Sulay Ramiro:It's like, the first sin, open doors to all these hardships that now we just have to walk through them and overcome them.
Sulay Ramiro:But oftentimes, you know, the religion gets in the way of that and gets in the way of, like, how the Lord can turn it around and use it for something really good.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah, I hope that answers your question.
Angie Robertson:Oh, yeah, totally.
Angie Robertson:And I think about Paul and the thorn in this side.
Angie Robertson:We can look at anything like that.
Angie Robertson:Like, every time Paul was like, look, I've asked you, Lord, three times to take this away.
Angie Robertson:And he's like, well, my grace is sufficient for you.
Angie Robertson:And I imagine, I mean, that thorn could have been anything.
Angie Robertson:It could have been autism.
Angie Robertson:It could have been ADHD.
Angie Robertson:It could have been a literal thorn in his side.
Angie Robertson:Who knows?
Angie Robertson:It doesn't really specify in the Bible what it is.
Angie Robertson:And so many people have so many ideas of what it could be, but we just don't know.
Angie Robertson:And I think that for me, the way I look at it is, is that God made it very generic on purpose for us to be able to identify that with anything in our lives that appears to be a thorn in our side or something that we wish wasn't there, but it is there, and how do we cope with that?
Angie Robertson:And God's saying my grace is sufficient.
Sulay Ramiro:And it's funny because I just finished reading whatever book that is in.
Angie Robertson:I know, right?
Angie Robertson:But.
Sulay Ramiro:It goes on to say that, like, Paul says that regardless, that now that Thorndye helps him be humbled before the Lord.
Sulay Ramiro:And, like, because if you think about it, because I think about this a lot, actually.
Sulay Ramiro:Paul goes from being, like, this horrible person to this, like, beautiful soul and to so many people, and we see it all the time, mega churches, mega pastors, where, like, that fame that, you know, that those things go to their heads.
Sulay Ramiro:And then it's a me, like, I did this, you know, versus no, God did this.
Sulay Ramiro:So I think that's another thing where it's like, it's an opportunity to remind ourselves, like, regardless, God is still good.
Sulay Ramiro:He's still doing a good work in our lives.
Sulay Ramiro:He's still being glorified through our lives, and we just have to, like, remain in that, you know, like, there are days where I'm like, man, autism is my superpower.
Sulay Ramiro:And then other days where I'm like, oh, my God, like, how am I going to survive the next however many years of my life, you know, where sometimes it's just overwhelming.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I was showing my therapist the other day.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm like, I'm showing you because I feel like I need to.
Sulay Ramiro:I need someone to keep me accountable.
Sulay Ramiro:And I showed her my office.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm like, it looks like.
Sulay Ramiro:It looks like the hurricane hit my office, literally.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, it's just chaos.
Sulay Ramiro:And I'm like, but I feel so paralyzed when I look at it.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I just can't even start.
Sulay Ramiro:So there are days where it looks like that and then other days where I'm like, my vivid imagination, you know, like, I have so many ideas, and we're doing all the things and, you know, whatever.
Sulay Ramiro:Right.
Sulay Ramiro:But anyways, all of that to come back to, like, at the end of the day, I truly believe that what we're going through is a way that the Lord's going to use it for his glory and for his goodness.
Angie Robertson:Always.
Angie Robertson:Always.
Angie Robertson:Well, let's talk a little bit about journaling.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Angie Robertson:And, I mean, we have the traditional journaling writing on a, you know, a piece of paper or in a notebook or.
Angie Robertson:For me, it's an iPad and pencil.
Angie Robertson:But I want to talk a little bit about a different take on journaling, and that is art journaling.
Angie Robertson:And with you being doing art therapy, I just feel like you could speak so beautifully on this and what that means to do art journaling.
Angie Robertson:I mean, I know there's.
Angie Robertson:I always tell people that there's no right or wrong way to journal.
Angie Robertson:It's individual for you, and you can do it whatever way you want, whether you're writing words, drawing pictures, pasting pictures, whatever.
Angie Robertson:But I want to talk a little bit about art journaling and what that can look like and what that can do for people.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:So, to be truthful, I didn't start journaling until grad school, and it was because it was a requirement for my program.
Sulay Ramiro:So what I really liked about my program was that I was essentially doing two master's degrees at the same time.
Sulay Ramiro:But I.
Sulay Ramiro:The art therapy obviously had a heavier focus.
Sulay Ramiro:But I remember out of the two years of my program, every semester we had, it was a class called processes and materials, where we just learned about literally every type of art that ever existed, and we would practice it and stuff and how it impacts the brain.
Sulay Ramiro:All the things I remember, the first I want to say it was orientation week, one of my professors was saying, like, you know, we need to start implementing.
Sulay Ramiro:We called it visual journaling.
Sulay Ramiro:And he just talked about the power behind not just journaling, but, like, the visual artistic part where we're processing beyond what words alone can process.
Sulay Ramiro:Because art taps into.
Sulay Ramiro:So there are different mediums that tap into different parts of the brain and offers the opportunity for exploration and processing and ultimately emotional wellness.
Sulay Ramiro:But what we were instructed to do was to start with what life in a graduate program was like, and then what every day, what's going on in everyday life.
Sulay Ramiro:And then we went into processing, like, what we were working on with our clients and our patients.
Sulay Ramiro:And quite frankly, I don't think I would have been able to survive some of the cases I was working on.
Sulay Ramiro:My first placement was with military vets in a substance abuse clinic, inpatient, and a outpatient PTSD clinic.
Sulay Ramiro:And other than being just such a visual person and, like, watching horrific movies in my head, as my clients would tell me stuff, art was, like, how I was able to, like, get it out of my brain, because I just.
Sulay Ramiro:I remember I had a clinical presentation once that was on a case I was working with.
Sulay Ramiro:And beforehand, I just was, like, sobbing, and I was like, I don't know why.
Sulay Ramiro:And I had a friend that was like, I think you're taking on your client's case.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm like, really?
Sulay Ramiro:Because I think I did.
Sulay Ramiro:Cause I'm watching this movie in my head that I've never actually lived, but it's so vivid in my brain.
Sulay Ramiro:And I remember right towards the end, something happened, and we had to, unfortunately, end our treatment.
Sulay Ramiro:But I created a piece of art that was based on something this client had created during one of our sessions.
Sulay Ramiro:And it just was, like, so freeing, because not only did I use something that was very tactile, I used chalk pastel.
Sulay Ramiro:Chalk pastel.
Sulay Ramiro:And I mentioned before, I have a lot of sensory stuff, and I didn't realize I would have a reaction out of using chalk.
Sulay Ramiro:But it was good in a way because I was able to just kind of work through it.
Sulay Ramiro:I used some symbolic stuff that they had used in their own art and was able to just process this abrupt ending and, like, the traumas that they had shared while we worked together.
Sulay Ramiro:But, yeah, so I've been doing that process of, like, just either one being able to focus.
Sulay Ramiro:So, like, doodling, like, I'm doing now to processing day to day stuff.
Sulay Ramiro:Three, getting more into, like, bigger work and not just confined to, like, a journal, but.
Sulay Ramiro: 've I've kept a journal since: Sulay Ramiro:I started off with, like, an eight by ten one, and that was the first semester.
Sulay Ramiro:By the end of the semester, I was like, I need something big because I can't.
Sulay Ramiro:I have so much to.
Sulay Ramiro:I need to release, you know?
Sulay Ramiro:And then I kept, like, a.
Sulay Ramiro:I want to say it was like a nine by twelve, maybe notebook.
Sulay Ramiro:But we always use mixed media journals that you can buy, like, at Walmart or whatever hobby lobby.
Sulay Ramiro:That way the paper is thick enough to hold whatever it is that you put on there.
Sulay Ramiro:So whether it be paint or charcoal, it'll hold.
Sulay Ramiro:But this year, when I was traveling, I was like, I have to have my journal.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I really do, but I need something that isn't going to be heavy and I can fit in my purse.
Sulay Ramiro:And so I got this, like, little mini one.
Angie Robertson:Oh, it is little.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah, it's little.
Sulay Ramiro:She's little.
Sulay Ramiro:But honestly, it's been so good for me.
Sulay Ramiro:It's helped a lot with one completing what I start because it's small.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, there's.
Sulay Ramiro:There's no way to, like, start and be like, oh, I'm tired.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm coming back.
Sulay Ramiro:But then, too, I can carry it anywhere.
Sulay Ramiro:I love it.
Sulay Ramiro:But, yeah, so I collage, I paint, I use oil pastel, chalk pastel.
Sulay Ramiro:Today we're using markers.
Sulay Ramiro:And what I did was, is that.
Angie Robertson:The doodle you're working on right now?
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Angie Robertson:Really?
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:And it started with, like, I had a client right before this, and I was like, oh, I'm going to doodle while we chat.
Sulay Ramiro:And then I just naturally gravitated to using my non dominant hand.
Sulay Ramiro:And it helped because it slows.
Sulay Ramiro:Slows me down.
Sulay Ramiro:Not rushing.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm just.
Sulay Ramiro:I did a line, started tracing the line with color.
Sulay Ramiro:That's all.
Sulay Ramiro:Just tracing the line with color.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, yesterday I recorded for a video that's going to be scheduled to post, I think, Friday.
Sulay Ramiro:But it was the same thing we were talking about.
Sulay Ramiro:The video talks about masking and what that feels like.
Sulay Ramiro:And so I just started, like, drawing these lines where it's, like, jagged and edged and, like, uncomfortable.
Sulay Ramiro:Using colors that I really don't like, like orange and yellow, and then going in with chalk pastels, something that's smoother and I could trace it and control it, and choosing colors that are more so soft and calming and doing shapes that are more organic and more circular, more, you know, so a lot of symbolism around, like, letting go of masking, being authentic, and being comfortable in my own, my own skin.
Angie Robertson:What I'm kind of realizing, too, is that arthem, when you, when you work with art in your journaling, it's.
Angie Robertson:It's engaging more of your senses because there's a tactile feel to it.
Angie Robertson:You're, you know, there's a, you can smell, like, you can smell markers or chalk or paint, whatever.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Angie Robertson:And then the visual and stuff.
Angie Robertson:So it's more engaging.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:So there's this thing called the expressive therapy continuum, and it's essentially like, it's the model that we use in art therapy of how different creative mediums interact with our brain and senses.
Sulay Ramiro:So there's always this ultimate goal of reaching creativity, which is the very top.
Sulay Ramiro:But, yeah, there's the cognitive materials, the symbolic, perceptual, affective, kinesthetic, sensory.
Sulay Ramiro:And the whole idea is helping individuals use art to tap into that side of the brain to reach creativity, eventually reaching to, like, emotional wellness.
Sulay Ramiro:So sometimes, like, for example, the more fluid the medium, the more release you get.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I remember.
Sulay Ramiro:I can give you a concrete example I worked with when I was working with military.
Sulay Ramiro:I was running a group, and we were doing, I think it was watercolor, essentially.
Sulay Ramiro:It was paint.
Sulay Ramiro:And so they were just talking and talking and talking and talking and talking and just telling me all the things and that finally they were like, I don't know why I'm talking so much.
Sulay Ramiro:I normally don't.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm like, well, you're using a fluid medium which tapped into that side of your brain, and now you're, like, being more fluid in words and verbal, you know, versus when you use a pencil, something non fluid.
Sulay Ramiro:I, for example, would use something less fluid for, let's say, a client that needed grounding.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, we're going through something very traumatic.
Sulay Ramiro:We're talking about it.
Sulay Ramiro:We're having physical symptoms related to it.
Sulay Ramiro:I might suggest doodling with a pencil or tracing their hand and filling it in with shapes using just marker, you know, something that's not fluid.
Sulay Ramiro:Because what we need is to, like, kind of bring it in after we've released a lot.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, I work with kids, too, and so sometimes kids are hard to get them to start talking.
Sulay Ramiro:So we might use something more fluid, but, yeah, I hope that made sense.
Angie Robertson:Oh, yeah, totally.
Angie Robertson:Now, you said something earlier about art.
Angie Robertson:I can't remember exactly how you said it, but basically it goes beyond words.
Sulay Ramiro:Yes.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:So art opens, it opens doors in our brains that words alone cannot, because words don't touch all our senses, you know, like, it's just words reach emotion, essentially.
Sulay Ramiro:But with art, like, let's say, oh, I remember when I worked with kids who had a lot of anger or a lot of, like, energy.
Sulay Ramiro:We would play with, like, clay and, like, punch into a clay.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, we're releasing it through the art.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, there's this idea of using art in therapy or art as therapy.
Sulay Ramiro:So we're talking, and I do a lot of art in therapy because of the virtual component.
Sulay Ramiro:So with my clients, we'll talk about whatever.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm like, okay, so let's explore this a little more with this creative prompt.
Sulay Ramiro:And they use what they have versus when I worked in person and worked with kids.
Sulay Ramiro:For example, we did do a lot of art as therapy where they could release that emotion in the clay or make a painting or draw on huge piece of paper taped to the wall, things like that.
Sulay Ramiro:But, yeah, there's just something to say about the power of creativity, and I always bring it back to God and how he is the ultimate artist.
Sulay Ramiro:You wake up, you see a sunrise, and you're like, there's no way.
Sulay Ramiro:There's not a God.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, look at this.
Sulay Ramiro:So I'd like to believe, you know, that he is the ultimate artist.
Sulay Ramiro:And there's just parts of our brains that he's created to where, you know, speech alone just doesn't reach, you know.
Angie Robertson:Yeah.
Angie Robertson:Which is true.
Angie Robertson:I mean, like, he, he's created, so he created everything.
Angie Robertson:So, yeah, I mean, in some things, he spoke into existence, and some things he just created.
Angie Robertson:So I can hear in my head somebody that doesn't journal, and we're talking about art journaling, and they go, but I'm not an artist.
Sulay Ramiro:I would say, ha ha, lies.
Sulay Ramiro:Here's the thing.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, yes, I have my degree in studio art, and I think when we say artists, we think Leonardo da Vinci, Van Gogh, you know?
Sulay Ramiro:But the thing is that artists creativity, it goes beyond, like, painting and painting things that are very literal, if that makes sense, where, oh, I'm about to show my true colors.
Sulay Ramiro:When I was in college, I quickly knew that I was not the average artist.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, like, my classmates could sit and see.
Sulay Ramiro:I don't know, they could paint or draw their friend, you know, realistically or, like.
Sulay Ramiro:And I just was never one of those artists drawing.
Sulay Ramiro:And, like, I could never, like, imagine something in my brain and have it come out on a canvas.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, I had classes where the only classes that I, like, truly enjoyed because I felt like I was in my element was maybe a little bit of printmaking, but there's still some drawing included in that.
Sulay Ramiro:But clay.
Sulay Ramiro:Clay work.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I just.
Sulay Ramiro:Just something about touching clay, and it wasn't like on a wheel, it was, like, hand building.
Sulay Ramiro:Something about that was just, like, so therapeutic for me.
Sulay Ramiro:I had this one class.
Sulay Ramiro:It was a painting class, and it was my senior year, a teacher I had.
Sulay Ramiro:I had no rapport with.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I had no.
Sulay Ramiro:All my other teachers, they just knew my style.
Sulay Ramiro:So when I got frustrated, they would just hear me out, right?
Sulay Ramiro:And I could ask them, like, for help or whatever.
Sulay Ramiro:But this one teacher, like, he just.
Sulay Ramiro:I was like, I don't like you.
Sulay Ramiro:And on top of that, I don't like the thing we're doing.
Sulay Ramiro:It's funny, because I found this painting while I was visiting my parents.
Sulay Ramiro:I just.
Sulay Ramiro:I couldn't help but laugh looking at it.
Sulay Ramiro:But it was a painting.
Sulay Ramiro:We were supposed to choose an image, like, already famous painting or whatever, and recreate that painting.
Sulay Ramiro:And I got a guy wearing glasses, and I'm like, what in the world?
Sulay Ramiro:Like, how am I.
Sulay Ramiro:What?
Sulay Ramiro:And I don't know how I did it, but I just got to the point where I'd be like, hey, I forgot his name.
Sulay Ramiro:But I'd be like, hey, I'm having a hard time with this section here.
Sulay Ramiro:And it'd be like, oh, you just do this?
Sulay Ramiro:And I'm like, do you mind showing me?
Sulay Ramiro:And he would just.
Sulay Ramiro:And he would get so excited, and he would sit in my seat, and I kid you not, paint the thing for me.
Sulay Ramiro:And I'd just be like.
Sulay Ramiro:And all the students caught on, and they were like, you're not even doing it.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm like, I don't care.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I need to pass this class, and I can't get this paint.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I was like, it's my senior year.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm doing really well.
Sulay Ramiro:This class cannot be it for me.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, I can't.
Sulay Ramiro:But grad school is when I learned that art is beyond that, right?
Sulay Ramiro:So part of our training was like, we have to believe that it's about creativity and not about being, like, some professional artist.
Sulay Ramiro:And we have to have our own sense of style in that in order to then be able to empower our clients to use creativity for healing.
Sulay Ramiro:Right?
Sulay Ramiro:And that just kind of opened doors for me.
Sulay Ramiro:And I became.
Sulay Ramiro:I was.
Sulay Ramiro:I was literally called the collage Queen by all of my classmates in grad school because I just gravitated so well to it because it worked for me.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, it didn't require me to like, create something for my brain.
Sulay Ramiro:I was just naturally drawn to the practice of, like, collecting and cutting and tearing and rearranging and putting together pieces that feel in a way that feels cohesive and natural.
Sulay Ramiro:And, like, when I'm in that mode, there's nothing that'll, like, interrupt it unless I naturally go, okay, I'm done.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, and to me, that's been such a healing place.
Sulay Ramiro:So what I would say to the people who say, oh, I'm not artistic.
Sulay Ramiro:I would say, find those creative spaces where you have that experience of, like, I feel natural in this.
Sulay Ramiro:The example I love to give is I have.
Sulay Ramiro:So it's my cousin's husband.
Sulay Ramiro:He is a huge car fan.
Sulay Ramiro:He's a big Honda car person.
Sulay Ramiro:I know nothing about cars, but it's like, that is his space.
Sulay Ramiro:He's been rebuilding this really old Honda, and he takes it to car shows and stuff, and people are like, oh, my God, this is wonderful.
Sulay Ramiro:And for him, that's his creative space.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, someone's creative space could be baking.
Sulay Ramiro:It could be cooking.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, maybe that's where they, like, thrive and they feel good.
Sulay Ramiro:And, you know, my mom, she loves organization.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, for her, like, you remember when.
Sulay Ramiro:What's that?
Sulay Ramiro:Marie Kondo?
Sulay Ramiro:Is that what her name?
Angie Robertson:Marie Kondo?
Angie Robertson:Yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:Marie Kondo.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:When she came out, my mom was like, oh, my gosh, I love her, you know, because that is my mom's, like, she could look at an empty room, and in her brain, she's mapping it out, and she's like, oh, we could put this here and put that there.
Sulay Ramiro:My dad's an electrician.
Sulay Ramiro:He looks at, you know, a panel, and he's like, oh, whoa, I could do this.
Sulay Ramiro:And I, you know, so I love it when people are like, oh, I'm not an artist, because I love to, like, challenge them on that and be like, well, let's find out.
Sulay Ramiro:Because I know you are, because we all are, right?
Sulay Ramiro:When God created us in his image, if he's part artist, so are we.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, what would you say to.
Angie Robertson:Someone we've talked about, if somebody says they're not an artist, but if somebody wants to kind of explore maybe art journaling, do you have any kind of recommendations or something that they should consider?
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah, my first one.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm going to get a little closer to the mic.
Sulay Ramiro:Don't overthink it.
Sulay Ramiro:I think we just spend so much time self criticizing that that's what holds us back when it comes to what I would recommend as a space to start.
Sulay Ramiro:I would say yeah.
Sulay Ramiro:Don't overthink it.
Sulay Ramiro:Odds are you have everything you need in your space to create something.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, do you have some sort of, you know, quote unquote canvas?
Sulay Ramiro:What is that?
Sulay Ramiro:Maybe it's a paper.
Sulay Ramiro:Maybe it's a paper plate.
Sulay Ramiro:You know?
Sulay Ramiro:Like, maybe it's a piece of wood that you were about to throw away, and you're like, oh, I want to do something with it.
Sulay Ramiro:I.
Sulay Ramiro:My go to is collage, so I use a lot of magazines.
Sulay Ramiro:I'm an upcycling artist, too, so I'd like to reuse or repurpose a lot of things that I have.
Sulay Ramiro:So, like, sometimes I'll go to the thrift store if I don't have anything at all, and I'll pick up canvas, paint over it, add stuff to it, right.
Sulay Ramiro:But I think, one.
Sulay Ramiro:It's.
Sulay Ramiro:It's a practice of being in the moment.
Sulay Ramiro:Mindfulness, right.
Sulay Ramiro:Allowing our brains to slow down and ask yourself, like, oh, what do I feel led to?
Sulay Ramiro:Grab, and then just grab it and go with it.
Sulay Ramiro:Right.
Sulay Ramiro:You feel led to grab a black marker.
Sulay Ramiro:Cool.
Sulay Ramiro:Go with it.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, maybe you fill up an entire page with squares and triangles.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, that's art, right?
Sulay Ramiro:I recently was hosting some workshops surrounding the idea of using what we have, and I created an example, and it was a matte board paint.
Sulay Ramiro:I didn't use a paintbrush, though.
Sulay Ramiro:I used an old affirmation card to slap on some paint.
Sulay Ramiro:That was my background yarn.
Sulay Ramiro:I cut up an old bracelet I never.
Sulay Ramiro:I haven't used in years.
Sulay Ramiro:I used little beads to, like, decorate it and whatnot.
Sulay Ramiro:I used the back of a pin that I got from college because it was just a cool shape, and I added some yellow yarn around it, and I was like, it's the sun.
Angie Robertson:Oh, I love it.
Sulay Ramiro:You know, like, I think bottom line is, like, just don't overthink it.
Sulay Ramiro:Use what you have.
Sulay Ramiro:I guarantee you you have what you need and have fun.
Sulay Ramiro:You know?
Sulay Ramiro:If you're not having fun, then it's not it, and that's okay.
Sulay Ramiro:Like, there's no judgment to using something and being like, I didn't like it.
Sulay Ramiro:That's fine.
Sulay Ramiro:You tried it.
Sulay Ramiro:Now you move on.
Sulay Ramiro:Go to the next thing.
Sulay Ramiro:One practice, I would say, to kind of get the juices flowing is a one line scribble drawing where you fill up a piece of paper, whatever size you want, but you fill it up with a scribble, one line.
Sulay Ramiro:Just fill it all the way up, and then search in your scribble for images, and then highlight it or color it in Orlando, you know, outline it, whatever.
Sulay Ramiro:It's kind of like when we look at the clouds and we look to see if we find anything.
Sulay Ramiro:Same concept.
Sulay Ramiro:And it just allows for the initial judgment or the initial anxiety of getting started with something to kind of level out.
Sulay Ramiro:That's art.
Sulay Ramiro:But, yeah, I actually made a video about that.
Sulay Ramiro:I want to say it was Monday, and I have it on my Instagram.
Angie Robertson:Page, which leads me into the next, like, to tell the people where they can find you.
Sulay Ramiro:Okay.
Sulay Ramiro:So other than being, you know, an art therapist, I'm also an artist and creative life coach.
Sulay Ramiro:So I have a business in that it's called emberstudio, and I'm on Instagram.
Sulay Ramiro:It's.
Sulay Ramiro:And, yeah, I just share all sorts of stuff around, you know, neurodivergence and ways to use creativity to overcome a lot of our fears, a lot of things that hold us back.
Sulay Ramiro:And to increase that confidence, I share a lot of how to videos with art and art directives and stuff.
Sulay Ramiro:And then also, of course, glorifying God in the middle of it and thanking him for the quirkiness that I have that makes me unique.
Sulay Ramiro:I can say that.
Sulay Ramiro:That no one else is like me, and no one else is like you, either.
Angie Robertson:Exactly.
Angie Robertson:All our thumbprints are different.
Angie Robertson:Every single one.
Angie Robertson:Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
Angie Robertson:And I'll be sure to link to all of her websites, Instagram, everything on the show notes as well.
Angie Robertson:So.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Angie Robertson:Well, I have one last question that I ask every guest, and that is, what does a spirit led life mean to you?
Sulay Ramiro:Oh, I feel like if I was at any other stage of my life, I would say, I don't know.
Sulay Ramiro:But I.
Sulay Ramiro:The beauty is that our life, all the things that happen, is due to the spirit trying to connect with us.
Sulay Ramiro:Right?
Sulay Ramiro:That's something I've been struggling to, like, understand my whole life.
Sulay Ramiro:And it wasn't until this season of my life where I'm like, lord, I see it, where, like, hardship, whether it be traumas or anxieties or fears, sadness, all the things, like, at the end of the day, they can be worked for good.
Sulay Ramiro:It's a matter of connecting with the Lord.
Sulay Ramiro:And what does that look like?
Sulay Ramiro:Having a prayer life, having a Bible reading life.
Sulay Ramiro:We search for truths on social media and all this stuff, and I know people know what I mean, but if we feel empty afterwards, it's just like, I don't see that.
Sulay Ramiro:Right.
Sulay Ramiro:But a spirit led light for me is getting into the word and making time for that.
Sulay Ramiro:I used to do my devotionals before I went to bed and something was like, you need to start the day with me.
Sulay Ramiro:How are you going to survive the day?
Sulay Ramiro:Spending time before my bed.
Sulay Ramiro:I then go to sleep and that's it, right?
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah, but no, yeah, I think that's what it means to me.
Sulay Ramiro:Just starting my day with him, listening to him through his word, through music, through other people, making sure I'm making room for that and being okay that maybe I don't listen to a crime podcast today.
Sulay Ramiro:Maybe today is just worship music because what am I going to lose, right?
Sulay Ramiro:But when I don't have that time with him, there's so much I could lose.
Angie Robertson:Well, thank you very much.
Angie Robertson:I have so enjoyed our conversation.
Sulay Ramiro:I did, too.
Angie Robertson:Yes.
Sulay Ramiro:Yeah.
Angie Robertson:Thank you for being here.
Sulay Ramiro:Thank you for having me.
Sulay Ramiro:It was such an honor.
Angie Robertson:What a juicy conversation I had with Sulai.
Angie Robertson:I'll be sure to link to how you can connect with her in the show notes for this week's heavenly position system challenge.
Angie Robertson:If you are not a journaler, I want to challenge you to maybe try and create a piece of art to express your feelings or thoughts.
Angie Robertson:You can even do a collage like Sulai described.
Angie Robertson:If you are a pen or pencil to paper or iPad journaler, I want to challenge you to step outside your journaling routine and maybe try an entry, drawing, doodling, or even collaging.
Angie Robertson:Now, as I close, I'm going to leave you with a poem that Sulai actually wrote just for us.
Angie Robertson:And I thought that was so special.
Angie Robertson:And it is absolutely beautiful.
Angie Robertson:There's something that happens when my finger touches the pages of this journal.
Angie Robertson:When I feel the pen roll smoothly across the paper, something clicks in my mind.
Angie Robertson:The gears shift, and when I add color and imagery, a whole world comes to life.
Angie Robertson:I come alive.
Angie Robertson:My spirit connects with he who is beyond and above.
Angie Robertson:My thoughts slow down enough to hear him calling.
Angie Robertson:There is a clarity that is unexplainable, a kind of clarity that is defined by peace and hope.
Angie Robertson:A peace and hope that only comes from him.
Angie Robertson:The ultimate creator, the ultimate artist.
Angie Robertson:Blessed am I that the one who created the world chose me to also create.
Angie Robertson:May all that these hands touch and form point back to him.
Angie Robertson:To God be the glory.
Angie Robertson:Thank you for joining me on today's episode.
Angie Robertson:This episode was produced, recorded, and edited by me, Angie Robertson.
Angie Robertson:I look forward to joining you each Thursday for a new episode as we explore together how to have a spirit led life.
